Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Have your say on A Cavern of Black Ice, A Fortress of Grey Ice and A Sword From Red Ice.

Re: Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Postby dark mage on Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:46 pm

heavymetalb0rdr wrote:This relationship is possibly one of the most confusing things about this series. Which of course makes sense, after all, we're dealing with love. A lot of things can be said, and many of them have been, but for the sake of clarity, I'm going to attempt to put all aspects of this relationship into words.

Well, I guess I'll start at the very beginning....

The first time Raif sees Ash, he immediately wants to help, but at this point its purely his instincts and honor driving him to do so. Angus stops Raif, which may have been the wise thing to do if it had been another girl, but be that as it may, Angus recognizes what she is and quickly goes to her aid, telling Raif to stay put. Of course Raif has no idea why this girl is suddenly worth risking his life to save, but he naturally trusts his uncle's judgment (who wouldn't trust Angus's judgment). The act of risking his life to save her, a stranger, does dramatic things to his view of her. It immediately raises her importance over others, even to the point of having feelings of protectiveness and maybe possessiveness. Once this is coupled with what he sees of the creatures of the blind in her head when he touches her, he is put in a dilemma. At this point, most people would fear her to the point of running or violence, but Raif seems to gain more concern for her with this revelation.

This introduces Ash's first glimpse at what kind of person Raif is. It also signifies the first completely selfless thing someone else does for her in her life. What he just did for her was in no way a small favor, and she realizes that. She becomes attached to him, viewing him as a safe harbor and a genuinely nice person.

Now, i know that was a lot for just the first minutes of their relationship, but i felt it was necessary, this is, in for two reasons. One, it had only been glanced over in previous posts. Two, this scene is, in my opinion, the catalyst for their fast forming feelings for one another. Now on to the pre-cavern time.

The addition of Ash to their party does give purpose to Raif in the form of protecting her, but I think it did a few other things as well. It allowed Raif, recently shunned by the clanholds, to get a view of life without clan. It also relieved him of being in the constant company of his uncle, who could be know to be a frustration what with all the secrets. So, Raif clings to Ash, his last comfort in what becomes the beginning of his own personal hell.

On the other side, Ash is suffering with the wralls and the isolation of not being able to trust anyone for so long. It's a shock when Raif comes along, because not only is he someone strong enough to help, but also, he is more than willing. She talks to him some, observes more, and finds someone who is truly incredible in a lot of ways. So, Ash clings to Raif, her first real comfort in a world she had long ago started to hate.

Once they meet again, without Angus, things have gotten a little more desperate. First off, they don't have Angus to comfort them with his perpetual knowledge of everything. Second off, with Heritas Cant's wards broken, the time they have went down a lot. So, they're alone, except for each other, and both of them obviously need each other at that point, so there's nothing to do but continue toward the cavern. They both interact more, learn more about each other, and further cling onto each other in their race to survive.

cavern...

Not a whole lot to say, even with the significance of giving Ash his lore. That particular action shows how much she has come to mean to him, which is to say, that he loves her. It doesn't necessarily say what kind of love though (I like to think it's romantic).

post-cavern...

This period shows a distinct change in Ash's attitude. She decided that she wants to know who and what she is, at all costs. In her mind, it's something that needs to be done. She already has deep feelings for Raif though, which is why the pointed coldness of her attitude was necessary. She knew he had feelings for her, and she knew she had feelings for him, so she tried (and some would say failed, myself included) to stop the feelings they had by acting that way. In her mind, it would make separation easier when it came, and maybe it did for her, but i really don't think Raif fell for it. She also lets her facade slip right before Raif loses consciousness, shown by her crying silently, probably still not wanting to alarm or upset Raif.

travels with the sull...

Where Raif was the love interest/knight in shining armor, the first two sull Ash travels with, Ark and Mal, are her "new and improved" family. They really do treat her like one of them(once she becomes one of them) and they show genuine care for her also. In my opinion, by the end of thier traveling, she comes to love them as real family, and not just shelter or protection. Then there's Lan... there aren't any appropriate words to describe my feelings toward him. And this is probably also the most discussed aspect of this forum so I'll keep it short. For a multitude of reasons (loneliness, feeling of belonging, etc...) she had this "fling" with Lan. Actually, to be perfectly honest, Miss Fish has already explained this in perfect enough words, just read her explanation of it if you haven't.

his own personal hell...

After Ash leaves, almost immediately, the weight of the world, literally, falls on Raif's shoulders. Time and time again, he either can't help (the destroyed Fort with the dying knight) or he ends up disappointing people by being forced to break another oath, and he's still expected to go save the world. Raif is truly strong, because this is somehow not breaking him, but it won't stop him longing for a better life, which is symbolized in Ash. This places her at an ever higher place in his mind, getting to the point where she can't be replaced (miss argola)
So, these are the reasons i think they have such strong feelings for each other, even though its obvious one of them is trying to forget her feelings and the other isn't necessarily forgetting, just ignoring to save himself from more pain (because that really is the last thing he needs).
Anyone got an opinion on any of this? Any discrepancies? Anything I missed?


Wow you and Miss Fish are awesome because both of you pretty much said what I was thinking but was unable to give it shape in words. I agree with all of your points and I also think, that to Raif, Ash has become irreplaceable because not only with Maria Argola, the time where he was being tempted by the ice-trapper girl, Raif first held himself back, because he thought he was betraying Ash by getting interested in another girl while Ash has no problems not only betraying but going all the way with another man. What's more Ash seemed to have succeded in shrugging off her feelings for Raif as in the 3rd book she rarely thought about Raif except for the part where she thought Lan made a heart-kill and in contrast Raif kept thinking of her in both the 2nd and 3rd book. Hence I agree Ash hs been trying to get over Raif while Raif has been trying hard not to sully his memories and feeling of Ash with another girl.
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Re: Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Postby Algol on Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:39 pm

I'm hoping Raif and Mallia will become a real couple. Maybe Mallia will manage to make him fall in love with her. I think he is attracted to her in some way. He reacted strongly in some situations. And thought that she was beautiful. Wondering what she was "missing" and all that. So I'm looking forward to reading about what will become of that. I think she may know a bit more than we've heard of so far. She probably has some abilities of her own. I'm looking forward to more of that also.
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Re: Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Postby heavymetalb0rdr on Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:34 pm

Well, its impossible to dey the fact that she represents sexual temptation for Raif, but that is it. He isn't attracted to her emotionally, which is what creates his awkwardness around her. She is heavily hitting on him, and on top of the fact that he has almost no experience with girls, he's already in love with Ash. Of course he doesn't want to offend her by telling her to go away, but if he were really interested, they would have been together already. Despite all this, it saddens me to say that I'm getting a bad feeling Raif is going to do something with someone besides Ash in Watcher.
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Re: Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Postby Triligas on Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:46 pm

Hello Everyone, I walked into a book store last week and picked up Cavern of Black Ice because I was looking for some bright new books to read and I wasn't dissapointed!! I just finished A Sword from Red Ice (I was hoping beyond hopes that there would be an ending, it's the worst kind of suffering waiting for the next book in an awesome series!) And I loved it! But it was heart-rending to have Ash pull away from Raif's memory throughout the book, half the time it seemed like she didn't care anymore while he was always thinking about her.

And then she started travelling with Lan and I didn't want to look, it seemed a little obvious where it was going! Let's say I'd like to meet Lan outside of Duff's, I'd probably be finished faster than you could say "My isn't Meteor metal sharp?".... But there was one thing in my mind that redeemed Ash and made me route for her and Raif even more. It was the thought she had after realised the treachery afoot. On page 617

"She had been dead wrong. Lan Fallstar was no Raif Sevrance."

It seemed to me like the thought meant more than the notion of heart-killing. And I hope it is so!! *fingers crossed*
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Re: Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Postby Akerbos on Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:45 pm

This could also mean that she realized that Raifs cares about her and Lan does not.

I do not know why lots of people think there are or there should be deeper feelings. As I wrote earlier, I do not think Raid will ever be able to be the loving, romantic guy. Not in his heart and not in this life, where he seemingly have to take the role of the main fighter and sufferer. He cares, yes, but that does not make him a lover, but rather a saviour. Ash, on the other hand, grows to be the mass-destruction-weapon of the Sull against the Endlords. I do not think she will have time or even the mind to love anyone.
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Re: Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Postby dark mage on Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:49 am

Triligas wrote:Hello Everyone, But it was heart-rending to have Ash pull away from Raif's memory throughout the book, half the time it seemed like she didn't care anymore while he was always thinking about her.

And then she started travelling with Lan and I didn't want to look, it seemed a little obvious where it was going! Let's say I'd like to meet Lan outside of Duff's, I'd probably be finished faster than you could say "My isn't Meteor metal sharp?".... But there was one thing in my mind that redeemed Ash and made me route for her and Raif even more. It was the thought she had after realised the treachery afoot. On page 617

"She had been dead wrong. Lan Fallstar was no Raif Sevrance."

It seemed to me like the thought meant more than the notion of heart-killing. And I hope it is so!! *fingers crossed*


Yep that was exactly my feelings when Ash met Lan, it was soo obvious where it was going and I didnt want to look and read about Ash getting closer to Lan and it really saddened me when they did the deed the first time and to be honest, I skipped the other intimate sessions between the two of them altogether. Just like you I also couldnt bear Ash pull herself away from Raif throughout the course of the book. And whatever, other people say that Raif "will never be able to be the loving, romantic guy. Not in his heart and not in this life, where he seemingly have to take the role of the main fighter and sufferer. He cares, yes, but that does not make him a lover, but rather a saviour", I think its already clear that Raif loves Ash, whether you admit it or not because Raif said so himself and Ash was clearly in Raif thoughts again when the Ice Trapper girl was hitting on Raif and he nearly gave in, after which he stopped himself and had a guily conscience when he thought of Ash as if he somehow had betrayed her, I think those should be proof enough for you. But I agree that Ash never really made her feelings for Raif clear, like we never clearly found out the nature of Ash's feelings for Raif as clearly as Raif's feelings for her, even when they were travelling together, Ash never really clearly displayed or thought in her head that she loved Raif or that she wanted to make love with him, so its true that most of the romantic feelings and sexual tension were from Raif's side during their travels together, so in that sense Ash didnt truly betray Raif when she did it with Lan and it was normal for her not to have a guilty conscience, if Ash didnt have romantic feelings for Raif in the first place, while Raif feeling guilty or thinking of Ash when he gets near to other women besides Ash, is because Raif had clear romantic feelings for Ash. However even if Ash did have some sort of feelings for Raif, its obvious now that Ash has completely forgotten about Raif and completely gave herself up to the pleasures of the flesh and the biggest proof, that Ash March had clearly moved on was, after having sex with Lan, she didnt have any guilty feelings pricking her heart whatsoever and compare to the number of times Raif thinks about Ash after she deserted him.

But I guess, in a sense, its better this way for the both of them because now Ash and Raif belong to different races and its more than likely that they might even face off against each other in battle or become enemies as afterall, Raif is destined to destroy Ash's new clan, so it might be easier on them if they had no lingering attachment or feelings for each other. I dont think Ash will have any trouble with that and it seems to me from the last page of this book, that Raif has also given up the hope of ever having a normal life with Ash in a peaceful forest with just the two of them. So I guess even Raif is finally prepared to move on. Also, I bet Lan has left quite an impression on Ash and might actually come back as the good guy who had no ill-intentions towards Ash and it was us who misunderstood him, and Ash might even embrace him back into her tent. :x
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Re: Raif & Ash, Their Relationship

Postby heavymetalb0rdr on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:20 pm

No. The first half I agree with you wholeheartedly, but not the second part. First off, I should point out that whenever Raif was near Ash, we were experiencing things from his POV, except for maybe one or two exceptions I'm forgetting. That would be the cause for not knowing what Ash was feeling by the time they split up. I also have a strong feeling that Lan was doing something to Ash, idk what or how, but I don't think she was thinking straight throughout ASFRI, hence lack of guilt on her side (and lack of inhibition or common sense in general). Raif might be fated to destroy the Sull, but we know almost nothing about the Sull, and we certainly don't know the circumstances behind why he would do it. Ash might even help him for all we know. As for Ash and Lan getting back together... Ash REACHED. She tried to call the creatures of the blind forward to destroy Lan. Do you think he could possible do anything to make it so that he wouldn't be killed(or have an attempt to be killed) on sight? Let alone let him back in her bed or tent or whatever? The only way that would happen would be as a repeat of Raina and Mace.
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