jvj

Witchary wrote:I agree with you. Although there is a very deep bond that exists between them, I never really got the feeling that it was in anyway a physical attraction. I don't know if it will ever spill over into anything sexual. Time will tell.

So you think sex is the only thing that distinguishes between sibling's and lover's love?

I think what Ash felt for Lan was a combination of fear and desperation due to her circumstances and good old fashioned teenage / young adult lust.

His good looks and mysteriousness did certainly help there, didn't they?

Am I the only one who is pleased Ash at least got to have sex?

I don't remember her age clearly, but I do not think she was too old for a virgin with her periods only starting. I do not know if this kind of first time(s) did any lasting good, either.

As for Raif, I hope he gets a little lust and affection of his own soon. I am sure the outlet would do his soul good.

He definitely needs it, but I doubt he will get it. He fears too much to abuse and hurt others. Remember the daughter of that mysterious man at the Rift. I think he could have had her if he only wanted. Perhaps being Watcher of the Dead kills any soft feelings before you really know them.

Akerbos wrote:So you think sex is the only thing that distinguishes between sibling's and lover's love?

Ummm, no, most definately not. I am sorry, I didn't realize that was the impression I gave. I was just trying to say that theirs was a bond that is deeper on every level than what is probably more commonly experienced by most people. Twas all.

Witchary wrote:Ummm, no, most definately not. I am sorry, I didn't realize that was the impression I gave. I was just trying to say that theirs was a bond that is deeper on every level than what is probably more commonly experienced by most people. Twas all.

Ah, I thought I got you wrong. No apology needed

I do not know if there really _is_ a special bond. I mean, where should it have come from? They travelled only weeks (?) together, hardly talking at all. If there is one, I do not think one of them notices. Otherwise, Ash would probably not have left Raif as apruptly as she did.
I tend to say it was coincidence: Ash being pursued, needing protection. Raif running from his failure, looking for a task he can dedicate himself to. It seems natural that the two end up together.
But this does not explain why Raif goes frenzy seeing Ash for the very first time. Destiny? Old Blood singing? What do you think? I do not believe he felt any kind of attraction to her, watching her ragged, running from the guards from a distance through gate bars.

Could well be old blood singing. I think they have a natural understanding of each other. Both hunted and haunted. Both with fates and destinies that are beyond their own control. I think Angus Lok knows something about both of them that hasn't been shared with us yet.

Gosh - I am pretty desperate for book 4 to come out. I need answers!

Witchary wrote:Both hunted and haunted.

That sounds great!

I think Angus Lok knows something about both of them that hasn't been shared with us yet.

I think this man knows a very great deal of everything.

I need answers!

You expect to get some in book 4 out of 5?

If there are any answers in the 4th book of a 5 part series they will either be very very bad answers, or proven false in the last book.

Perhaps I should have been clearer here. I am not so much expecting answers, but glimpses of foresight. In the 2nd book I wondered what would become of Effie. Was she going to be another sad loss for Raif, or was she going to take on a vastly different role. 3rd book answered that for me, and so on.

(Sorry to break up this cozy chat between dark mage and witchary)

I would just like to add my little 2 cents on the developing relationships. Firstly with Lan and Ash. I do not think that Lan's purpose in the novel was solely to provide Ash with a taste of romance, or betrayal for that matter. Certainly those are important factors and should not be overlooked, but what I found myself realising throughout Ash's encounter of Lan is that: Not all Sull are essentially good.

Previously the Sull, cloaked in their mysterious and prideful rituals, hidden behind symbols of moons and ravens, buried in their histories and superior destiny, become something that is revered, respected, admired, feared, something that commands a great deal of awe. Ash's travels with Ark and The Naysayer certainly enhance this image. They are knowledgeable and honourable, and we readers eat it up. When Lan comes along, his 'hot-cold' behaviour almost fits, although it bothers Ash some. He certainly has the superiority of the Sull, but Lan takes it to the level of disdain.

After his betrayal we are plunged into the ice water. Not all Sull are essentially honourable. Oh you might argue that he was doing the best thing for his people by attempting to destroy the Reach, but does that justify his abuse of her youthful lust and desire to impress a young man belonging to the people she has just become one of? Lan is no fool. He knew early on that Ash was the Reach. But unlike his fellow far riders, Ark and Mal, did he get on his knees and put his head on the snow to honour her? No, he did not! He rather abused her need to belong. It is one of Ash's most obvious traits. She has no family, and only desires to be loved and belong to someone.

That in itsself is dangerous. Ash has power to control the beasts of the Blind. She could pretty much do exactly as she likes when she discovers this power at the end of Bk3. So what does she have to stop her doing just that? Who is there in her world that would give her reason to stay her destructive hand? If she had a family that loved an cherished her, the bond would make her want to protect them from the evil of the Blind. But Ash's links to the physical world are precarious and tenuous. She has no training, and she has no reasons not to do exactly as she likes. And she has been deeply hurt by Lan, a Sull, the ones who were supposed to treat her like family.

I believe this 'fling', as it has been termed, served to harshly reveal to Ash that there is no one group of people that is interested in her for any other reason than that she is the Reach. Not the Sull, not the cities, not the Phage, and the clanholds don't care one way or the other. And this brings me to my final point.

So when the wheels start turning in Ash's head...

Who helped rescue her from the red cloaks outside Vaingate? Who shared that moment with her outside in the snow where the creatures of the Blind invaded her mind? Who cared for her and kept her warm and asked no questions? At Heritas Cant's, who refused to let her go, and fought for her in the only way he knew how? Who waited for her after they were held prisoner at Bludd? Who took her the shortest route to her destination though it pained him to go through the clanholds? Who kept the voices at bay and forced her to sleep and eat? Who carried her up a mountain when she was too weak? Who fought off a wolf to save her life, and called on the gods who had forsaken him to save her? And who gave her his raven lore to guide her back after she released her power in the Cavern?

Raif.

And when she starts realising that the only person who ever cared for her as another human being is Raif, I believe she'll go back to him. Not even Mal Naysayer can claim as much, he stated himself that no Sull would let her live if she did not become Sull. Ark and Mal would have cut her down right then had she refused. But this will cause new problems, for Ash and Raif's destinies are pretty much in opposition... She controls, and is loved and feared by the creatures of the Blind, and Raif is fated to destroy the Endlords... But i'll keep those particular speculations to myself.

- The Dying Fish

Fantastic thought processes Mr. Fish.

The last couple of paragraphs especially ring clear for me. All those examples of Raif's love (filial and possibly romantic) and care for Ash are such a big part of the story.

I'm not going to second-guess what direction Julie is going to go, whether Ash will have those thought-processes .. But wouldn't it be awesome!

That would be Miss Fish, but no offence taken

Ahhh. My apologies

Miss Fish.

Love or affection can certainly explain Raifs actions. But the need to help at least one person, to succeed at least one time and not to disappoint or destroy everybody he meets can, too. I think Raif was almost broken then. He abandoned Clan (and that means mainly Drey and Effie) and lost his honor. He was looking for purpose, and found it in helping Ash.

If Raif's reason for helping Ash was only to find purpose in life and not out of love or affection is not entirely true because if it was Raif would not be missing Ash so much after she left him. He wouldn't be thinking of Ash when he thinks of a quiet, peaceful home to share with someone. Yes some part of it was probably to help soeone but it was mostly because Ash was somenoe who was very precious to Raif. Raif thought alot about her and even dreams of her in this book and its clear that losing Ash was a big blowor him even now. The hope in his eyes when he met those Sull that he would get to meet Ash again was proof that Raif still desperately wants to see again.

@Miss Fish, you did a very good job explaining Ash's feelings and I especially loved the way you described Raif's deeds for Ash's sake. He really did alot for her. It kinda sucks how she left him without even barely a word. I hopw what you said about her coming back to him becomes true, although the chances of that happening are very slim. They would probably meet as enemies which would be the last biggest blow for Raif

I Couldn't have said it better myself fish. I think their shared vision may also be crucial. What do you think

This relationship is possibly one of the most confusing things about this series. Which of course makes sense, after all, we're dealing with love. A lot of things can be said, and many of them have been, but for the sake of clarity, I'm going to attempt to put all aspects of this relationship into words.

Well, I guess I'll start at the very beginning....

The first time Raif sees Ash, he immediately wants to help, but at this point its purely his instincts and honor driving him to do so. Angus stops Raif, which may have been the wise thing to do if it had been another girl, but be that as it may, Angus recognizes what she is and quickly goes to her aid, telling Raif to stay put. Of course Raif has no idea why this girl is suddenly worth risking his life to save, but he naturally trusts his uncle's judgment (who wouldn't trust Angus's judgment). The act of risking his life to save her, a stranger, does dramatic things to his view of her. It immediately raises her importance over others, even to the point of having feelings of protectiveness and maybe possessiveness. Once this is coupled with what he sees of the creatures of the blind in her head when he touches her, he is put in a dilemma. At this point, most people would fear her to the point of running or violence, but Raif seems to gain more concern for her with this revelation.

This introduces Ash's first glimpse at what kind of person Raif is. It also signifies the first completely selfless thing someone else does for her in her life. What he just did for her was in no way a small favor, and she realizes that. She becomes attached to him, viewing him as a safe harbor and a genuinely nice person.

Now, i know that was a lot for just the first minutes of their relationship, but i felt it was necessary, this is, in for two reasons. One, it had only been glanced over in previous posts. Two, this scene is, in my opinion, the catalyst for their fast forming feelings for one another. Now on to the pre-cavern time.

The addition of Ash to their party does give purpose to Raif in the form of protecting her, but I think it did a few other things as well. It allowed Raif, recently shunned by the clanholds, to get a view of life without clan. It also relieved him of being in the constant company of his uncle, who could be know to be a frustration what with all the secrets. So, Raif clings to Ash, his last comfort in what becomes the beginning of his own personal hell.

On the other side, Ash is suffering with the wralls and the isolation of not being able to trust anyone for so long. It's a shock when Raif comes along, because not only is he someone strong enough to help, but also, he is more than willing. She talks to him some, observes more, and finds someone who is truly incredible in a lot of ways. So, Ash clings to Raif, her first real comfort in a world she had long ago started to hate.

Once they meet again, without Angus, things have gotten a little more desperate. First off, they don't have Angus to comfort them with his perpetual knowledge of everything. Second off, with Heritas Cant's wards broken, the time they have went down a lot. So, they're alone, except for each other, and both of them obviously need each other at that point, so there's nothing to do but continue toward the cavern. They both interact more, learn more about each other, and further cling onto each other in their race to survive.

cavern...

Not a whole lot to say, even with the significance of giving Ash his lore. That particular action shows how much she has come to mean to him, which is to say, that he loves her. It doesn't necessarily say what kind of love though (I like to think it's romantic).

post-cavern...

This period shows a distinct change in Ash's attitude. She decided that she wants to know who and what she is, at all costs. In her mind, it's something that needs to be done. She already has deep feelings for Raif though, which is why the pointed coldness of her attitude was necessary. She knew he had feelings for her, and she knew she had feelings for him, so she tried (and some would say failed, myself included) to stop the feelings they had by acting that way. In her mind, it would make separation easier when it came, and maybe it did for her, but i really don't think Raif fell for it. She also lets her facade slip right before Raif loses consciousness, shown by her crying silently, probably still not wanting to alarm or upset Raif.

travels with the sull...

Where Raif was the love interest/knight in shining armor, the first two sull Ash travels with, Ark and Mal, are her "new and improved" family. They really do treat her like one of them(once she becomes one of them) and they show genuine care for her also. In my opinion, by the end of thier traveling, she comes to love them as real family, and not just shelter or protection. Then there's Lan... there aren't any appropriate words to describe my feelings toward him. And this is probably also the most discussed aspect of this forum so I'll keep it short. For a multitude of reasons (loneliness, feeling of belonging, etc...) she had this "fling" with Lan. Actually, to be perfectly honest, Miss Fish has already explained this in perfect enough words, just read her explanation of it if you haven't.

his own personal hell...

After Ash leaves, almost immediately, the weight of the world, literally, falls on Raif's shoulders. Time and time again, he either can't help (the destroyed Fort with the dying knight) or he ends up disappointing people by being forced to break another oath, and he's still expected to go save the world. Raif is truly strong, because this is somehow not breaking him, but it won't stop him longing for a better life, which is symbolized in Ash. This places her at an ever higher place in his mind, getting to the point where she can't be replaced (miss argola)

So, these are the reasons i think they have such strong feelings for each other, even though its obvious one of them is trying to forget her feelings and the other isn't necessarily forgetting, just ignoring to save himself from more pain (because that really is the last thing he needs).
Anyone got an opinion on any of this? Any discrepancies? Anything I missed?