A more global question would be : "Can You Get Better At Magic In This World?".

In Sword, when Raif does "magic" stuff, he just does it.

In Cavern, JVJ was so careful to make sure we understood that using magic gave you that metallic taste, left you weak. Raif and Iss both spring to mind. Now, Raif was a newb, so it's possible he could have just had newbie syndrome .. except that we know from Iss's pov, that magic is still a cranker when you are versed in it.

In fact, the Baker's Boy trilogy bears that first. I'm remembering now .. Baralis really had a hard time. Magic was fickle, and could bite you back hard.

So what is up with it in Sword? Is Raif some kind of super-user? Maybe I read Sword too quickly, and missed this. It was just a thought that occurred.

Nay, he ain't, lad.

but, as goes my reckoning, it'd be a tad tiring always to mention the tiring effects of magic ... now, we're supposed to imagine this tidbit by now as we know how it works in this special world of JV's imagination, and I for myself enjoy this more than if one 'd chew it for me everytime.

JV 's got enough other nifty stuff to write, and I enjoy her more writing about the characters and their deeds. Have I yet said, that the Dog Lord is ultimatively cool. That's one sturdy fellow.

stay safe

Ha ha. "Lad". If I were more feisty I'd get fired up at that. Thankfully i'm not .. plus, reminds me of Druss. Laddie. Nice. Except I secretly want to be Druss .. calling other people Laddie.

Anyway. The post wasn't a negative comment on JVJ's writing. Was more trying to think about the magic of the world, and how it is structured. Can you get better at it? Can you pass from it being a pain to use? Or is there another magic, like do the Sull have access to something different?

Yeah, the Dog Lord is very cool. Sturdy and Strong. Except his teeth. Heh heh.

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Quote:

Death smiled as she withdrew. Kill an army for me, Raif Sevrance. Any less and I just might call you back.

He, that's been a quick one, gosh!

I've just adapted my writing to a kind of sword-of-shadows-tone. Rough like the Dog Lord. That's cool. *gg*

I haven't seen your comment as negative criticism, just as a question.

Besides - I'm sure, Raif could learn the magic ways if there'd be someone who'd taught him.

What I do not think is that the weakness 'd ease away. Thats something so crucial in JV's books: that you have to pay a price for what you do, especially in terms of magic. It doesna come as a cheapo, that's for sure. Why JV doesn't elaborate more on this (there are references - wakers daddy or baralis doing it - the two of them shift or groan or get grey around the noses): I have already posted my opinion about this.

But don't take Iss for a strong sorcerer. That guy 's a magical weakling despite all his cunning - he 's ressorted to the bound one (you know who that is by now eh?) for the greater of his magic tricks.

Ha ha .. may I extend kudos to you on your Dog Lord vernacular . Nice.

That's right .. i'd forgotten that Iss was a weako. He had to use Baralis for his stuff.

And yeah, the weakness / price to pay is so very important to the world JVJ has made.

I wonder if there is different force though .. like that of the Shadows? Something .. more .. i dunno. I guess, in one sense, Ash is that. Different. She is the Reach, and hers is the stuff of magic. The hair on the arrow. And who knows what else.

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Quote:

Death smiled as she withdrew. Kill an army for me, Raif Sevrance. Any less and I just might call you back.

I think that because Raif's magic is quite unconscious and also quite restricted in what he can do (I'm guessing we're talking about the heart-killing stuff?), it's more of an innate talent than a trained mastery of all the arts of sorcery. Being Watcher of the Dead, it's almost like it's his birthright, and is "built in" to who he is. I don't really see him learning or improving that much. Now he has Loss, do we really think he'll need to learn anything more?

****Book of Words and Sword from Red Ice Spoilers Below!!!****




Just a note on Ash's Reach-ness...
I've always figured that since her parents were presumably brother and sister that she may have ended up with some awesome genetics. (Sort of like how Baralis bred himself a royal heir, as well. JV's using genetics, I think, she's just not blatantly saying it in context.) Daddy Jack, if I remember right, only had a hard time with magic when he thought too hard about it - mostly, I think, because it was so taboo where he grew up. Most of the time his magic use was based on emotion, but it was still really powerful. I mean, he turned back time to unburn some bread! Baralis was impressed. He just had no one to teach him how to control it.
So hopefully the Sull are going to teach Ash to use her power a little bit. If not, then she'll just wander around like Jack, zapping stuff whenever she gets all emotional. And she's at the perfect spastic emo age.


And as for Baralis...
I think he is very powerful. The magic took its toll and made him weak. In A Man Betrayed, it talks some about his education and younger years. He was 'formally' educated in magic. His teachers found him to be an adept mage (or whatever we're calling them) but rather lacking in certain commonly acceptable morals. 's why they kept pawning him off on other teachers. He also held Catherine of Bren's magic use in contempt because it was so weak.
I also don't think Iss drained all his powers. I think Iss kept him confused, weak, and mad so that he wouldn't be physically able to pay any tolls to the magic. Baralis shows no sign of using any magic until he is somewhat recovered after Iss's death. But he's still bedridden when he storms the gates with a blizzard. Changing the weather can't be easy. So it makes me think he's STILL very powerful, Iss or no Iss, shadows or no shadows. And Baralis will get out of any deal he made with the shadows - he's more silvertounged and slippery than any Scarpe.

I think that what I'm getting at is that this world's magic has lots of different elements that effect it and each other:

education
natural ability
capacity for power
emotion
discipline/training
ability to pay the balance of the toll physically or mentally
[*edit*] magical parapheraila

Any more? If this were a story about kids going to wizard school, we wouldn't be wondering. :p

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"The Alliance ain't the good guys. They're the opposing faction." ---Sam Shepherd or Stephen Howie

obanite: I like the "built-in" thing about Raif's heart-killing power.

polijn: Kudos! on the different elements. You really lay down some cool fundamentals.

You know, I didn't make the connection to Baralis for the storm. There were enough references to it to make me think it was someone .. just didn't click. Stupid brain. Have to start a re-read shortly.

Your list fits with Raif to, that his is natural ability, and now discipline/training too. Not training in the formal sense, but over time he has gotten more adept at his heart-killing.

However, I'm not convinced that the heart-kill is the extent of Raif's magic. I have nothing really to back that up. More that I can't see JVJ sticking to just that .. for her main protag.

Perhaps Loss will draw out some more chaos in him. Perhaps he'll learn more from .. sista girl (the foreigners sister). Perhaps he'll become half-shadow and gain access to a different magic.

Hmmm. I wonder if the Raven King can flit between the worlds. Although that was more Ash's thing .. that's what Heritas (I think) told her, that she'll be the one who can walk between the worlds.

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Quote:

Death smiled as she withdrew. Kill an army for me, Raif Sevrance. Any less and I just might call you back.

Raif also has flashes of prophecy - when he touches the stone and see's Ash's eyes and then Inigar Stoop asks him why he thinks he can heal the stone (they actually may be two separate events). I think that's a bit of a sign that there is more to Raif than heartkilling.

I agree that the ability to heartkill is "inbuilt" in Raif and I think as he practices, he would have to use less power to mark the heart, and he would be surer of the result.

Bram (spl?) also has this prophesy thing. As does Effie. And probably others i'm forgetting.

I wonder if it's more a sign of their affinity with the Stone Gods (conduits for the power of the Gods) than a separate skill or magic. I've always just assumed by default (probably because of RJ or Eddings) that prophesy is a different skill to wielding magic. But what if it's more that prophesy is part and parcel with being a magic user?

OR

This foretelling deal is a result of the Stone Gods getting stuck into mortal affairs. I doubt this one .. very reaching .. ha ha .. reach. Nice.

Nope, I'm more sold at the moment on the above .. part of the use of magic.

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Quote:

Death smiled as she withdrew. Kill an army for me, Raif Sevrance. Any less and I just might call you back.

Does any one see some connections between the 9 endlords and the 9 gods of the clanholds. Its also kinda of strange that the sword loss shares the same name as clan hold god number 4.

"spoiler"
we cant forget what possible affect that lightning shard thats gets seared into his body mixed together with the part of shaitian (or whatever that shadows name was) claw that was in him mixed with his natural ability and what that may mean later in the series

Good connections. And yeah, will be interesting to see what happens about any mixing together in Raif.

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Quote:

Death smiled as she withdrew. Kill an army for me, Raif Sevrance. Any less and I just might call you back.

*** Red Ice Spoilers Ahead *****




It seem to me that magic in the clanholds is of a specialist nature and is widely villified. This is why Clan Grey is called the "cursed" clan - because it is where the magic users congregate or originate.
Some examples of specialist clan magic...

Effie - Fortelling of danger and the status of family members.
Raif - Heart killing.
Chedd Limehouse - "old animal skills".
Ash March - Reach (although she is not considered clan)

I'm not saying that they are not capable of other skills as well but they seem to have a predominant specialty.

Maybe the southern continent magic users (Baralis, Jack etc) have a more general aspect to their abilities.

It will be interesting to see if any of the above can expand their abilities.

That's a pretty cool idea regarding Clan Grey and the "magic" users. Nice.

Be interesting to see what characters come into play in book 4. Characters that Effie meets. Will hopefully get a much deeper look into the entire magic scene.

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Quote:

Death smiled as she withdrew. Kill an army for me, Raif Sevrance. Any less and I just might call you back.

I too hope hear a lot more of Clan Grey and magic in the next book. I have a feeling that we have only seen a small side of Effie and have only touched on her abilities, and her role in the story