jvj

Just curious what everyone's opinion is regarding Israels decision to kick ass and take names. Personally I support their decision, and am frankly surprised it took this long for them to break. I certainly would have broken sooner.

On the flip side to the coin, though I believe that Israel is fully justified, I do feel that the entire situation is standing on the icy precipice of a VERY slippery slope. This could turn into something far far worse and we may all suffer because of it.

Personally I am disgusted by the media coverage here in Aus over the whole thing. As far as they can they are trying to paint Israel in a bad light. Driving me nuts. Okay that's besides the point, I know.

I am completely anti war, but I am not anti defence. This is not a pre-emptive strike on Israel's part. They have honestly put up with more than enough to justify their actions.

I was actually reading last night that on Christmas Eve Hamas launched 80 rockets on Israel (not that that was reported by Aussie media) which was pretty much what caused Israel to go enough is enough.

Not to go back to an old point, but Israel was and has been fighting "a war on terror" long before gwb decided to use it as a catch phrase.

Hrimnir, if you wouldn't mind, could you elaborate on your last sentence? As in what do mean we could all suffer?

Well, to elaborate, depending on what continues to happen with this, we could potential see Iran/Syria going to war with Israel. Israel would of course defend themselves, and probably very well, but were an all out war to begin between Iran/Syria (and probably a few other arab countries as well), the US would pretty much be forced to back israel. At this point all hell could break loose because the US is tied up in Iraq, and it would draw us reeeaaallly thin if we tried to take on iran and keep things going in Iraq.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the situation, but i can see a lot of things happening here that won't be to the benefit of anyone.

What baffles me to be honest, is the rampant anti-semitism that exists in the majority of europe. Some countries like France for example, are estimated to be upwards of 70% of the population being anti-semitic, as evidenced by the fact that the french ambassador tried to broker a deal in which Israel stops but makes no mention of Hamas stopping attacks. Even somewhere that is supposed to be this beacon of Progressive social ideals, like the UK, has estimates that close in on 60%.

On a side note, does anyone else find it amusing that with all the crap the US receives from european countries about us all being ignorant, racist, slack jawed yokels, that we were the first "1st world" country to elect a person of african descent to a leadership role? Correct me if i'm wrong but no country in Europe has done so? Now i know the demographics are a bit different, in that there isn't nearly as much of a black population in for example the UK as in the US, but i still think its a bit amusing.

Well, to elaborate, depending on what continues to happen with this, we could potential see Iran/Syria going to war with Israel. Israel would of course defend themselves, and probably very well, but were an all out war to begin between Iran/Syria (and probably a few other arab countries as well), the US would pretty much be forced to back israel. At this point all hell could break loose because the US is tied up in Iraq, and it would draw us reeeaaallly thin if we tried to take on iran and keep things going in Iraq.

Well put.

As for anti-Semitism, I don't understand it. Period.

You are right in saying Europe has not had a black president / prime minister, but the US in turn has never a female president, and my Australia has never had either of them.

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Hrimnir wrote:What baffles me to be honest, is the rampant anti-semitism that exists in the majority of europe. Some countries like France for example, are estimated to be upwards of 70% of the population being anti-semitic

When do you call someone 'antisemitic'?
Not that it would have to do anything when Israel is discussed. Jews long ago ceased to be a folk. Today, it is just a religion. The state of Israel is not more connected to Judaism than Italy to Christs or Turkey to Islam.

On a side note, does anyone else find it amusing that with all the crap the US receives from european countries about us all being ignorant, racist, slack jawed yokels, that we were the first "1st world" country to elect a person of african descent to a leadership role?

I remember people saying they probably won't vote for Obama because they fear him being killed by his own people just because he's black.
As for me, I give a shit about people's skin color, so you won't get praise from me for electing a black skinned man to presidency. Obviously, he was the best man available for the job (or Americans _are_ a rotten bunch of racists, voting for him just because he is black), so he should do it.
At least, there is an educated man at the top of the world's #1 war leading nation now. Hope it will help.

@ Topic: I do not see were Israel is fully justified. I never understood why a nation created artificially and probably by force, equipped with top notch weapons by the USA, even dares to speak up a bit. There are a lot of insane people in that region, and on both sides of the fence. Those wackos either should stop fighting and share what is left or go ahead and kill each other cleanly, so the peaceful people can live their lives.

You mentioned the self-made rockets shot by hamas. I do not support such acts, they are vile. But for 80 crap bombs shot killing two people, Israel bombs down a block with their F16-dropped smart bombs, killing two dozen civilians. They start a war and flatten a hole region to force two (!) soldiers free. There is no proportionality. With nukes in Israel and the USA at their back, knowing that anybody who dares to criticise Israel's politics will be denounced as a antisemitist (which makes no sense at all), they behave like a 10 year old bully knowing that whatever he does to the 8 year old punk, if he ever gets in problems, his two older brothers would beat him out.
There should be UN resolutions ostracising Israel's actions (and those of the USA as well), but wonder why _that_ can never happen...

In their thinking, Hamas is no better. But they do not have the force to create a second Atlantis. Israel has.

I am sorry Akerbos but I really don't agree with you here. Israel is not some backward desert country. It is one of the most progressive countries in the world. Technologically it is the most advanced country in the world, with its literacy and education on par with Japan. They have been involved in a lot of conflicts with neighbouring nations, but (and please correct me if I am wrong) they did not instigate any of these conflicts, they only repelled attacks from nations who did not accept their independence. You say that there are a lot of insane people in the region, and granted there are a lot of extremists, but the last time I checked (and once again, please correct me if I am wrong) but Israeli's are not ones shouting Jihad at everyone who does not conform to their predominant religion, and they are not the ones participating in suicide bombings and other such extremely detrimental nonsense.

If Israel was just another member of the Arab states, they would not be the progressive country they are. The Jewish contingent would almost most definitely be an oppressed people. And lets be honest here, the middle east is not exactly known for its human rights policies or technological advancement. Israel stands alone there. I would think anyone interested in human rights would be backing Israel. Also I do not think if you criticised Israel's politics you would be labelled anti- Semitic. Although Judaism is the largest religious group of Israel, Israel is home to other ethnic groups, such as the Arab citizens of Israel. They are also home to a number of other religious groups, including Muslims, Christians, Samaritans and the Druze. All of whom live quite peacefully together within the Israelii border.

When I read how much they have actually had to tolerate since their independence, I think it is a testament to their nature that they have taken this long to retaliate with this amount of force.

I would like to re-iterate, I am not pro war, but given their circumstances and geographic location, I don't see that Israel has any other viable option. I would also like to say, I do not dislike or hold any contempt for the USA. I do not agree with a number of its foreign policies and I think gwb is a dangerous man, but fully support the USA in their efforts in Afghanistan. Iraq is another story.

Edit,

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I'm sorry Sumigo, but i have to take issue with some of what you said, i'll go point by point.

As an American I am familiar with opression and genocide, we are good at it, just ask the Native Americans and the Africans we brought here. So I am not preaching from a pedestal here, I know my countries history is soaked with the blood of genocide, therefore its easy to recognize it elsewhere.

First and foremost i have difficulty calling anything that happened regarding the native americans and the US "genocide". Though i am not in any way justifying what our govt did, genocide by definition is a systematic and deliberate destruction of an ethnic, ratial, religious, or national group.

What the US did was forcefully displace native americans. We certainly didn't bundle them up in trains and put them in ovens and gas chambers after forcing them into work camps for months and years before killing them. Again, i want to stress that i am in no way downplaying the wrongness of what that particular group of people were subjected to, i simply feel that comparing it to the holocaust is wrong.

Di that may be true in the regards that they are defending themselves once Israel was established, but they were the original attackers in that region, they invaded a country they hadnt lived in for hundreds of years. They took advantage of the weakened state the world was in after WW2 and invaded Palestine. The people that lived there before resent that and want them out, as you would if someone invaded Australia.

I think you are mis-representing the truth here. Although yes, they hadn't traditionally lived there for hundreds of years, you failed to mention that they were booted out of their homeland, which had been where israel partially occupies right now, since the 11th century BCE, primarily by invading muslim forces, and of course the romans, greeks, etc. You are right that they took advantage of the situation post WWII, but they were fully justified in doing so, at least in my opinion.

I mean honestly, i don't know your ancestry, but lets just say that you are of Irish descent, and lets for the sake of argument assume that Ireland has been under Russian rule since the mid 1500's, would you not jump on an opportunity to reclaim your homeland?

I understand why Israel is on the attack right now, they have what they percieve as a terrorist organization on their doorstep and they are doing what it takes to minimize the threat.

What they *perceive* as a terrorist organization?!? The US lists hamas as a terrorist organiztion, The European Union lists hamas as a terrorist organiztion, Japan considers hamas to be terrorist organization. Hamas *is* a terrorist organization. They operate under the front of a political party, but IMO anybody who can't see through that front is living in denial, or is willfully ignorant.

But what pisses me off about that crap hole of a country is that due to the fact that Jews own all the major media news networks they force their own propaganda down our throats.

If two, TWO Isreali soldiers or people get killed/injured/abducted its a media frenzy here in the US, Im serious, its like the world is going to end or something. But hundreds of Palestinians get killed in the reprisal and you hear squat.

Are you serious? A cursory search on google for "gaza" and i found:

BBC News: Strike on Gaza school 'kills 30'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

The Guardian (Major UK news outlet)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -palestine

From the Associated Press: "Palestinians say Israeli raids near school kill 34"
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD95HOUBO0

ChinaView, another large chinese news organization, "Abbas calls on Security Council to save Palestinians from Israeli":
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009- ... 615403.htm

The New York Times (i dont think i need to explain this one):
"Israeli Shells Kill 40 at Gaza U.N. School"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/07/world ... st.html?em

On the FRONT PAGE of the CNN.com website "Gaza hospital crowded with civilians, doctors say"
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/ ... index.html

I'm sorry, i could keep going on and on and on, but it would be pointless. I think i've proven my point. To try to say that the media has some "pro Israel" agenda is anything but the truth. Just like Di said, the media is less likely to report pro-israel news articles than it is anti-israel news articles.

Plus the jews are hypocrites, the holocaust was horrible and should not have happened, but because that happened to the jews does that give them the right to perform similar acts on the Palestinian's?

Please god show me where Israel has done anything even remotely close to similar to what the Nazi's did to the jews during the holocaust. You're not even comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing apples to porterhouses.

The civilians that have died because of israeli attacks in gaza are far more Hamas' fault than Israels. Hamas and lots of other terrorist organizations are known for using innocent humans as a shield. They will operate out of mosques, out of religious sites, historical sites, etc, because they know that the good guys will not attack them there because of risk of collateral damage. Israel has not directly attacked nor intended to harm any civilians in this attack.

The problem is that Hamas houses many of its operations in the middle of civilian quarters specifically because they know that if Israel were to attack the target it would cause injuries and deaths to innocents. They sacrifice their own people simply so they can point fingers at israel and try to demonize them. Outside of full on nazi style genocide, and using children as suicide bombers, it is the most heinously wrong thing i can think of, and yet hamas and most other terrorist organizations have absolutely no qualms doing it.

No one holds Isreal accountable for their oppression and if you say what I am saying now, your labeled an anti semite and blask listed. Just ask Mel Gibson.

Wow...just...wow. Mel Gibson is undoubtedly anti semitic, from the official police report for his 06' DUI arrest, he specifically stated to officers, "Fucking Jews... Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world. Are you a Jew?". I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more anti semitic than that.

I agree with you that people are very quick to slap people with the "anti-semite" label, kind of like if you say anything negative about african american society you are immediately a racist bigot, even if the criticisms are valid and well documented/supported, etc. But there is a line to be drawn, and mel gibson assuredly crossed it.

If you read altenate news sites like Al Jazeera you can see the truth (as much is allowed by Israel) that the palestinians are being oppressed. If it isne true then why wont Israel let reporters that arent in their pocket into the Gaza strip to see whats going on for ourselves?

Did you just seriously infer that Al Jazeera is an unbiased news source? I'm sorry but your opinion just lost all credibility with me, all. I don't mean to be offensive, but if you read anything from al jazeera without a grain of salt, you're doing yourself a serious serious disservice. As for them not allowing in reporters, could it be that *gasp* they're in the middle of a full on military operation and they don't want to risk the lives of reporters? The US did the same thing, they wouldnt throw a reporter into the middle of a combat operation until the area was cleared. Come on now.

I understand Israel's outrage when a suicide bomber gets through their security and blows up a cafe, or a market and I dont condone those actions. But if some other country occupied my home and oppressed my people, I would fight back too and I probably wouldnt care if it was man, woman or child that I hurt in the process.

You need to read up on the history of Israel and specifically the land of israel. This is an area that has been in dispute for literally thousands of years. Your statement implies that israel is some invading occupying force, like nazi germany did with poland, its quite a bit different.

My last thought on this is in regards the the footage of Palestinians cheering the destruction of the Word Trade Center on 09-11-2001. I was very angered about that and I felt for many years that the Palestinians deserved what they are getting, but something has caused a change of heart in me recently, I guess I realized that they are people too and no one cares about them, they are forgotten and in danger of being wiped from the map completely.

Palestine has been a front for the muslim hatred for the western world and specifically Israel since WWII. Yes, it sucks that innocent palestinians are caught in the middle of this, but i didn't see any tears rolling down their cheeks when innocent israel civilians died from hamas attacks. I'm sorry but in my opinion, to sit back and do nothing in the face of evil is just as bad as participating.

The quote ""All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." stills rings crystal clear.

I think this is a topic that some of us may want to choose to agree that we disagree, based on our ideas that may or may not have been, at least in part, formed by the propaganda machines in each of our countries of residence.

Di (withary) said that in Australia the media is painting a negative light on Israel. I live here in the US where the propaganda machine (aka the media at large) tends to always paint Israel as the victim and Palestine as the aggressor.

I once had a conversation with someone from Europe (here in the US) that said the media there reported the Palestine-Israel unrest as two peoples' who didn't get along, but painted neither as good or bad. In contrast to that, here in the US, we tend to get our reports polarized to the point that any action taken by Israel is reported as basically a "military action" based them being attacked by Palestine. Reports of Palestine activity, however, tend to be worded as "terrorist action". It is no secret that Old Jewish money is deep routed in America. I make no claims as to wether that is right or wrong, just that it is.

I interpreted Hrimnir's last line of his opening entry as...."If Israel goes to war, the US goes to war". Not with Gaza, mind you, but if the Islamic neighbors gang up on Israel.

My first thought/reaction, Hrminir, was "why did Israel wait soo long? Palestine has been lobbing shit over into Israel for a long time now." As soon as I thought that, I immediately went to the thought that I really have no right to pick sides because I'm polarized by a Jewish-American bullshit propaganda machine which has for years and years, fed me different information (as an American) than many other parts of the world are receiving in their news media.

I think that most of the poisoning that occurs in this world has to do with our minds, as opposed to our food and water supplies. This is something that is not done by so called "terrorist organizations", but by governments.
Governments, however, can in some cases function as and be considered to be terrorist organizations. The good old US of A would certainly be on that list. Thanks to the outgoing president, the number of people who think that today is probably at its highest level ever.

My final thought on this conflict is that I do not know what the right or wrong side is, so I choose not to pick sides.

They have been involved in a lot of conflicts with neighbouring nations, but (and please correct me if I am wrong) they did not instigate any of these conflicts, they only repelled attacks from nations who did not accept their independence.

If you only repell attacks, you stop at your border. Did Israel just do that?
Anyway, as a child I was taught that although the attacker is always at fault, you must be careful with your claims when you provoked him.
What do you say about Israel usurp West Bank and Gaza?
Furthermore, Israel denies independency to the Palastinians by military force.

but the last time I checked (and once again, please correct me if I am wrong) but Israeli's are not ones shouting Jihad at everyone who does not conform to their predominant religion, and they are not the ones participating in suicide bombings and other such extremely detrimental nonsense.

They have no need for it. They have well equipped military. Terrorism is all about communication. Israel does not need to use this channel to tell the world what it thinks, for all the world listen to them already.
Btw, traditionally, Judaism is a very aggressive religion. Back in the times when Jews were a folk, they did lead wars against other folks to conquer and build their nation. They believed themselves to be the chosen people. And considered religion, they probably still do.

Also I do not think if you criticised Israel's politics you would be labelled anti- Semitic. Although Judaism is the largest religious group of Israel, Israel is home to other ethnic groups, such as the Arab citizens of Israel. They are also home to a number of other religious groups, including Muslims, Christians, Samaritans and the Druze.

Exactly my point. But mind that (as far as I know) it's the Jews pulling the strings, suppressing oppositions.

All of whom live quite peacefully together within the Israelii border.

That's just not right. At least in the usurped territories, there is constant fight. In Jerusalem as well, I think.

When I read how much they have actually had to tolerate since their independence, I think it is a testament to their nature that they have taken this long to retaliate with this amount of force.

Don't they leash out like that all couple of years?

If you read altenate news sites like Al Jazeera you can see the truth

If Fox is one side of the lying medal, most certainly Al Jazeera is the other one.

What the US did was forcefully displace native americans. We certainly didn't bundle them up in trains and put them in ovens and gas chambers after forcing them into work camps for months and years before killing them.

They distributed toxic food and contaminated clothes to natives, clearly intending to kill them. They sent troops to kill them. They killed the bison. They pushed them into reservates (probably even by train). I call that
genocide.
Plus, in the USA, there was racism by _law_ till the 60s. Decades after they fought a bloody war against Hitler allegedly because he was a racist. What hypocrisy. I do not know any other state claiming to be democratic and at the same time discriminating, even segregating people because of their skin color.

Although yes, they hadn't traditionally lived there for hundreds of years, you failed to mention that they were booted out of their homeland, which had been where israel partially occupies right now, since the 11th century BCE, primarily by invading muslim forces, and of course the romans, greeks, etc. You are right that they took advantage of the situation post WWII, but they were fully justified in doing so, at least in my opinion.

This is dangerous terrain you move upon. Consider what you justify, too:
The Holy Roman Empire contained, besides Germany and others, BeNeLux, Austria, Poland, Czechia, Italy, at least until the renaissance. So you justify Germany moving by force into this countries, killing or expelling the people living there for ten or more generations. You want that?
Another example: Hitler attacked Poland, what is widely considered to be a vile act. However, at that time people _lived_ that remembered all Poland belonging to Germany. You think he was right?
I'll tell you what I think: Folks move. States change. There are no valid historically based claims on countrysides. When children whose parents move there are born, it is their home and no one has the right to expel them.
Thus, Palastinians are fully right about Israel invading. But since this is done 60 years now, it can't be made undone. Both sides have to cope and behave.

The civilians that have died because of israeli attacks in gaza are far more Hamas' fault than Israels.

That's your claim.
If Israel was as educated as Di claims, they would reflect and think about _why_ Hamas even exists. To them, Israel is the usurper, and they are not entirely wrong. You can not change that opinion by bombing and shooting. And as long as this opinion prevails, Hamas or others will continue to fight, kill as much as you like. Thus, totally effectless bombs are dropped killing innocents unnecessarily.

The quote ""All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." stills rings crystal clear.

So you prefer creating one evil to beat another?
But, well, that's the American way. Hussein and Bin Laden were created by the USA to fight one enemy. Then they are declared rouge and other puppets are created to fight them. I wonder who'll be next. No one even seems to wonder if people hate the USA _because_ they treat others like this.

our ideas that may or may not have been, at least in part, formed by the propaganda machines in each of our countries of residence.

I also feel that is so. Not only propaganda, but socialisation also.

I once had a conversation with someone from Europe (here in the US) that said the media there reported the Palestine-Israel unrest as two peoples' who didn't get along, but painted neither as good or bad.

I can second that.

It is no secret that Old Jewish money is deep routed in America. I make no claims as to wether that is right or wrong, just that it is.

That depends on the use. If it is used to control or even influence media and/or politics, it is wrong. If it is just there and used like money should be used, it is ok.
Either way, I would not say "the Jews control USA" but "some rich assholes control USA". If they do it because they are Jews and others aren't, they are the racist's themselves.

I immediately went to the thought that I really have no right to pick sides because I'm polarized by a Jewish-American bullshit propaganda machine

That's a very educated and mature way of thinking. A pity not more people do it like you.

Governments, however, can in some cases function as and be considered to be terrorist organizations.

Not really. As I said, terrorism is about communication. Governments kill with the intent to gain advantages for their country or themselves. They are wrong nonetheless and should be stopped.

My final thought on this conflict is that I do not know what the right or wrong side is, so I choose not to pick sides.

I think that today, there is no right side anymore. There are two stupids beating the crap out of another, each feeling fully justified. Perhaps there are even people planing it cold blooded on either side.

With regards to Dave's first post. I very much agree with everything Dave wrote here. I am sorry Sumigo, as much as I normally enjoy reading your posts, I think that you have a lot of misinformation regarding Israel.

Having just seen the latest images on the bombing of the UN schools, I honestly couldn't express how horrific it must be those innocent civilians. But as pointed out, hiding and striking out from areas / buildings such as schools is how terrorists conduct war.

Mel Gibson, oh boy. Not only was that an incredibly anti-Semitic thing to say, considering the industry he is in, it has to qualify as one of the stupidest things ever said.

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Edit,

So please dont talk down to me.

That's a proper request, but you could give a good example. You don't.

Regarding your fiction: If the situation was different, so were opinions.
What you want to ask is, what if Arabs had been massacred during Holocaust and owned US media now? Would the world leap to help Gaza and West Bank?