jvj

I am not doing an about turn here, but as Sumigo says, white phosphorous, WTF?

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4748257n

Unfortunately it is allowed under international law to illuminate targets and create smoke screens. Personally I think this is BS. Like most warfare practices it should just be banned period.

Still I do agree with the Israeli offensive, as they have had to put up with terrorist attacks for too long. Hamas should be banned as a religious fanatical group.

That being said I am all for all forms organised religion being downgraded. Religion should be something you live by, not something you rule by. Religion should be personal and private, not something that can be forced on someone else. Girls of 8 being married off to adult males, girls being stoned to death in stadiums for public viewing. Men being beaten to a bloody pulp for following one sect of faith and not another. Through out history in every culture, organised religion is at the root of worlds greatest atrocities. Only through organised religion can we breed young people who are so misguided in their faith they are willing to take their own lives along with the lives of other innocents in suicide bombings, or stone a young girl to death after she was raped. Civil law needs to be implemented globally, and globally laws should read the same. I am starting to sound a bit extreme myself... Apologies very steering away from the subject. One thought led to another and so on and so forth.

As a side note though, and back to the topic, yes, the Palestinian suffering is terrible, but they are not exactly innocent themselves, bombs aside, have a look at the treatment of the minority Christians who live under the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28642180/

GENEVA - The international Red Cross said Tuesday that Israel has fired white phosphorus shells in its offensive in the Gaza Strip, but has no evidence to suggest it is being used improperly or illegally.

Oh gee, color me surprised. Israel has done nothing that is against the geneva convention. To say they "used white phosphorous against civilians" in the gaza strip is not only a bull faced lie, but an insidious one.

Direct quote from Peter Herby, head of the red cross mines-arms division:

"...it's not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it's being used in any other way."

Shooting illumination flairs into the night sky to illuminate is something that every military in europe, and of course the US military, has done for 2+ decades, and is absolutely not against the law, international or otherwise.

Do you just believe everything you read without digging any further than the very surface? Its seriously beginning to make me sick.

Edit,

dleerious wrote:this is well crafted propaganda, it was created to shock you.

As long as the pictures are authentic, this is only fair.

I wonder if humanity will ever be able to see past propaganda.

As long as there are no lies involved, propaganda is much like merchandise.

The phosphorous thing was apparently a piece of unchecked propaganda that may have been re-reported as fact. note: I worded the previous sentence carefully, in an attempt to not get involved in any 'attack/re-attack'.

This is a highly sensitive issue for many parts of the world, due to who seems more one's friend/ally versus who might not.

If you search for "phosphorous flare", you will see many articles about this claim of Israel doing something that no one else does. In my short looksee online, it appeared to be a false claim, in the sense that, many/most industrialized military machines appear to use phosphorous for a few military purposes, such as tracer rounds and illumination of a battlefield at night, etc..

I went to http://pajamasmedia.com/ronradosh/2009/01/26/ethan-bronners-quandary-a-fools-errand/ and then did a control-f (find) and searched for "flare".

Lots of people are wound very tightly over this issue. There is right and wrong-doing on both sides.

sumigo wrote:Just remember Hrimnir, you got personal first, I am simply responding to your personal attack, so deal with it.

Doesn't look like i'm the one having issues "dealing with it", you're the one flying off the handle.

Simply because its in the Geneva convention does not make it ethical, white phosphorous burns people for days after its been used, little children are walking through it burning their feet. But hey its ok its Israel doing it, that makes it ok, they can do no wrong apparently. They can kill 100's of innocent civilians and not even get a slap on the wrist, SWEET!

My heads up my ass? Why don't you actually read the articles you link to instead of taking the headline at face value. Oh thats right, then it wouldnt qualify as fuel for your anti-semitic propaganda machine. They found residue from flares that are used by EVERY military of any civilized country, that includes ALL of Europe's militaries, Japan, Russia, and the US. So please, don't pull your "oh israel can do no wrong" card when its quite obviously a slice of bullshit.

You ever hear the saying 2 wrongs dont make a right?

Yeah, you ever heard the saying, "Hey Pot, this is Kettle, you're black."

I guess I shouldnt be surprised that this would come from someone who claims that the US govenrment didnt try to commit genocide against the native americans. LOL, I seriously cant believe you said that.

Yeah, apparently you don't understand the definition and meaning of the word genocide. In your fantasy world, giving "diseased" blankets to people qualifies as genocide, when the people giving the blankets couldn't possibly have known they were diseased, because the idea of germs didn't even exist at the time.

Let me give you a little history lesson, since that has become a common problem here. The idea that germs even EXISTED, called Germ Theory, wasn't even cemented as fact in the ACADEMIC community, until 1875. It wasn't even seriously considered as a plausible theory until the late 1850's.

Now, if the world's eminent scientists at the time, didnt even believe that germs existed, much less were the cause of things like disease, explain to me how the common military soldier or officer would know that giving these blankets to native americans would cause them to become diseased and die. You can't demonize them for that when there was no possible way for them to know.

Now, i will again state this, i did not condone the manner in which native americans were assimilated into "white" culture. But to call it GENOCIDE is an insult to every person who has had a family member die during the holocaust, and to damn near every citizen of rwanda, republic of congo, and a host of other countries in africa, who have dealt with REAL genocide, not your cooked up version which you use to support your flawed and baseless opinions.

You wanna know who the only person i can find who actively calls it genocide, Ward Churchill. Yeah, the professor from CU Boulder who called the victims of 9/11 "little reichmans". Are you going to associate yourself with his anti-semitic ass as well? I certainly wouldn't be surprised if you did.

I hope you are sick, if I had my head up my ass as much as you do I would probably be sick too.

Hey, i've never once wished you bodily harm or sickness. But hey, if thats the path you wanna go down, so be it. Just keep in mind, you went there, not me.

Seriously dude, heres a nickel take it and go buy a clue.

Ohh, another witty remark, color me surprised. So, were you planning on actually supporting your arguments, or are we all supposed to just take everything you say as gospel?

It is naive to think the propaganda war does not go both ways- a point that I do not think has been mentioned here. Just as some Arab news outlets (Al-Jazeera etc) have banged the drum for the Palestinians, so Israel has attempted to control and manipulate the media by preventing foreign reporters from entering Gaza and also by employing a veritable army of spokespeople during the fighting to sell their side of the story.

I would also add that on both "sides" there are those who do credit and discredit to their factions. Hamas are clearly mad, but I think there are a fair amount of Israelis (particularly in the military command structures) who have completely dehumanised the Palestinians in their minds, and are not averse to killing a few extra here and there. Can I substantiate that absolutely without a lot of effort? No. But just as there are crazies on the Palestian side, there are plenty of hawks on the Israeli side.
The result of Israel's GE is v. important.

Red_Phobos wrote:It is naive to think the propaganda war does not go both ways- a point that I do not think has been mentioned here. Just as some Arab news outlets (Al-Jazeera etc) have banged the drum for the Palestinians, so Israel has attempted to control and manipulate the media by preventing foreign reporters from entering Gaza and also by employing a veritable army of spokespeople during the fighting to sell their side of the story.

I would also add that on both "sides" there are those who do credit and discredit to their factions. Hamas are clearly mad, but I think there are a fair amount of Israelis (particularly in the military command structures) who have completely dehumanised the Palestinians in their minds, and are not averse to killing a few extra here and there. Can I substantiate that absolutely without a lot of effort? No. But just as there are crazies on the Palestian side, there are plenty of hawks on the Israeli side.
The result of Israel's GE is v. important.

Absolutely correct. Neither side in this conflict can claim moral superiority. It just absolutely drives me bat shit crazy when people read a headline, not even read the article, and then take it as gospel. The very same articles that in the headlines inferred that israel "used" white phosphorous on the palestinians goes to say that they actually didn't use white phosphorous. But of course people don't want to be confused with the facts. They only want information that supports their "arguments* (i use the term loosely).

edit

sumigo wrote:Hey Hrimnir, next time why dont you break it down word by word or even better letter by letter you pretentious douche bag.

You do realize that you have ruined this board dont you?

Oh I am so insulted, you called me anti semitic, at least I am not a pretentious, pompous know it all wind bag who has the subtlety of a bull in a china shop. Call me what you want, at least Im not some simple minded puppet who believes everything Israel tells us.

Conversing with you is as much fun as getting kicked in the groin.

Well, i'm very sorry, i never claimed to be subtle.

I was hesitant to start this thread because i knew, absolutely knew that there would be at least 1 person who would be anti-israel, especially because this forum has people from around the world. Unfortunately that person turned out to be you.

I can frankly say i won't apologize for anything i've said. I certainly won't apologize for insulting you, as your last two posts have shown your true colors (something i never tried to hide, just FYI).

That being said, please don't assume that i'm the only one that holds these opinions regarding this situations, because you will be sorely mistaken.

As for me ruining this board, you may very well be correct. If it is in fact me, i will happily remove myself from the board as that was truly not my intention.

I vote for no one leaving the forum and maybe just let this one thread die.
In the semi-imortal words of Conan O'Brien....."be cool my babies!"
Ok, the second line was uneccessary, but I think its time to agree to disagree on this subject, followed shortly thereafter by letting it go, as far as this forum is concerned.

thats my two cents, which leaves you about $1.83 shy of a cup of coffee

ciao

Dave

Thank you Dave, if you were nearer to me I would hug you

woah! i leave for a week and i come back to find the forums gone crazy!

hope we can all move on now